Life's like that Options

[richsul]

I know someone who has taken on a printing project -- in carbon of course -- for a client. She has run into some difficulties that I thought would be interesting to pass on.

Her client is a fairly well known person in the photo world so I have to be a bit discrete here. Here's a couple of the issues:

The client wants rilly sharp images(!) and finds the negs made by an Epson printer to be mushy and not sharp enough so is demanding that they be made on her big new Canon printer. It turns out the Canon makes small dots and the ink is not opaque enough to get good blacks. Of course there is no using Quadtone rip as it doesn't exist for the Canon so we are at strike one already. The client has a set of silver prints that are to be matched! Both are on the coast so they are far enough away.

These are issues that do not come up in platinum printing or many other historic processes. Maybe in albumen. People see the difference in a platinum print and don't associate it as masquerading as a silver print.

A carbon print is often quite stunning and one is instantly reminded of a silver print. It can be very sharp and have a full tonal range. Because of this clients gravitate to making carbon prints match their silver prints. I've run into this and have not taken on the project. That's ok to a point but this sharpness fetish really riles me up. What most people perceive as sharpness isn't sharpness in the first place. Weston's peppers and nudes are not sharp. He used a Rapid Rectalinear for most that was shear mush. The "sharpness" in a Weston (senior) print is a a holistic set of parameters all working together, tonal reproduction being very prominent.

Also I've never heard anyone around these parts complain that current models of Epson large format printers not being sharp.

I think people with this sharpness fetish are in the same league with the hi-fi nut (been there and done that!) who listens to his or her "system" instead of Mozart. (Done that too!)


Spleen vented!

--Dick

[pschwart]

I know someone who has taken on a printing project -- in carbon of course -- for a client. She has run into some difficulties that I thought would be interesting to pass on.

Her client is a fairly well known person in the photo world so I have to be a bit discrete here. Here's a couple of the issues:

The client wants rilly sharp images(!) and finds the negs made by an Epson printer to be mushy and not sharp enough so is demanding that they be made on her big new Canon printer. It turns out the Canon makes small dots and the ink is not opaque enough to get good blacks. Of course there is no using Quadtone rip as it doesn't exist for the Canon so we are at strike one already. The client has a set of silver prints that are to be matched! Both are on the coast so they are far enough away.

These are issues that do not come up in platinum printing or many other historic processes. Maybe in albumen. People see the difference in a platinum print and don't associate it as masquerading as a silver print.

A carbon print is often quite stunning and one is instantly reminded of a silver print. It can be very sharp and have a full tonal range. Because of this clients gravitate to making carbon prints match their silver prints. I've run into this and have not taken on the project. That's ok to a point but this sharpness fetish really riles me up. What most people perceive as sharpness isn't sharpness in the first place. Weston's peppers and nudes are not sharp. He used a Rapid Rectalinear for most that was shear mush. The "sharpness" in a Weston (senior) print is a a holistic set of parameters all working together, tonal reproduction being very prominent.

Also I've never heard anyone around these parts complain that current models of Epson large format printers not being sharp.

I think people with this sharpness fetish are in the same league with the hi-fi nut (been there and done that!) who listens to his or her "system" instead of Mozart. (Done that too!)
Spleen vented!

--Dick

finds the negs made by an Epson printer to be mushy and not sharp enough
I don't get it -- is the customer proofing the negatives or actual carbon prints? Trying to exactly match a silver print in carbon via a digital negative makes no sense to me. You can come close, but why bother to make a carbon print that mimics a silver print? That said, there are some things that will enhance perceived sharpness -- smooth support, a bit of relief, collimated light source, a bump in contrast. The Bowhaus folks have a Beta software RIP that supports Canon printers (Mac only). May be helpful:
http://www.trueblackandwhite.com/

[richsul]

I believe they're proofing in carbon on quality ink jet photo paper so they sharpness is being judge in the carbon itself. None of it makes any sense. I've run into this problem and so has this printer. The person doing the printing in this case is not real proficient in carbon, at least in my mind. I think there is a tendency to think that if you have made good platinum prints, it's a short hop-skip-and-jump over to carbon. Add to that a client who wants you to match their silver prints and you've got problems. I bring this up here because I see this as an emerging trend. I've been in this business now for 30 years and I think my antenna is tuned to these kinds of things. Some of us will be taking on projects for other folks. My advice -- which has also been iterated here by others as well - is to lay down the law right up front.

I'll pass on the rip info. The printer is not on this forum -- I don't think she is anyway.

--Dick

finds the negs made by an Epson printer to be mushy and not sharp enough
I don't get it -- is the customer proofing the negatives or actual carbon prints? Trying to exactly match a silver print in carbon via a digital negative makes no sense to me. You can come close, but why bother to make a carbon print that mimics a silver print? That said, there are some things that will enhance perceived sharpness -- smooth support, a bit of relief, collimated light source, a bump in contrast. The Bowhaus folks have a Beta software RIP that supports Canon printers (Mac only). May be helpful:
http://www.trueblackandwhite.com/

[Howard Efner]

Well like DUH! If the client wants the sharpness of his/her silver prints and a match to the silver prints, then make silver prints from the original negatives.

Grumpy 'ol Howard

[pschwart]

Well like DUH! If the client wants the sharpness of his/her silver prints and a match to the silver prints, then make silver prints from the original negatives.

Grumpy 'ol Howard

Right! Very few customers or collectors have any experience with carbon and most probably have never seen a print.
There is a lot of education that needs to happen.

[richsul]

They are enlargements from medium format.

What can I tell you!

--Dick

Right! Very few customers or collectors have any experience with carbon and most probably have never seen a print.
There is a lot of education that needs to happen.

[richsul]

The curator/collector crowd is a bit better educated than it was in 1980 when we started B+S but it still has a long ways to go.

On the other hand the photographers themselves have gotten a lot dumber in the meantime so there's another spanner to throw. So far what I am seeing is silver printers moving to carbon for collectors editions. God forbid when the digital crowd comes a knocking! I've talked to MFA's who didn't know what a zone was, who had ever loaded a film holder, or had ever heard of a Waterhous stop, or had ever heard of CameraWorks. I can confirm all four. This is the previous generation, imagine the current crop. I've heard of schools dropping photo history because they were going digital. There are schools where you can get an MFA without taking photo history, one in Scotland I know of, Edinburgh I believe. Enyeart mentioned some others to me. Schools have gone "Postmodern" which means theory, which means we don't need to know "craft." I had one MFA who was a department head at a 4year who used "craft oriented" as a pejorative and dismissed all European photo education as being "craft oriented." I was proposing to here a MFA program built around historic processes. An MFA is supposed to be a "studio art" degree, that to me, seems to imply craft. Imagine getting a degree in piano, violin, etc, but you can't play the instrument but can program midi to do it. Even a degree in composition requires one to be skilled in piano. Name one modern composer who isn't skilled in piano. Most are performance skilled. Bernstein, Copeland, Gershwin, et al.

Enough. I get riled up.

Right! Very few customers or collectors have any experience with carbon and most probably have never seen a print.
There is a lot of education that needs to happen.

[sanking]

Well, it is certainly possible to make sharp carbon prints from good medium format negatives. But you must start with a very sharp negative, scan it with a high quality scanner (at minimum a dedicated film scanner like the Nikon LS-9000 or Imacon), then do good processing of the file in Photoshop with appropriate sharpening techniques. If your technique is mediocre at any of these stages the mediocrity will reveal itself much faster than if you are working with a LF or ULF negative.

Many people believe it is possible to get a good scan of a MF negative with one of th Epson flatbeds. Sorry, but it just will not happen. These scanners are just garbage compared to high end scanners. The most you should ever go with them is about 3X magnification.

I limit the size of my carbon prints from MF negatives to about 12X18" but at that size the print quality is usually as good as from my 5X7 view camera.


Sandy

They are enlargements from medium format.

What can I tell you!

--Dick

[Jim Fitzgerald]

The curator/collector crowd is a bit better educated than it was in 1980 when we started B+S but it still has a long ways to go.

On the other hand the photographers themselves have gotten a lot dumber in the meantime so there's another spanner to throw. So far what I am seeing is silver printers moving to carbon for collectors editions. God forbid when the digital crowd comes a knocking! I've talked to MFA's who didn't know what a zone was, who had ever loaded a film holder, or had ever heard of a Waterhous stop, or had ever heard of CameraWorks. I can confirm all four. This is the previous generation, imagine the current crop. I've heard of schools dropping photo history because they were going digital. There are schools where you can get an MFA without taking photo history, one in Scotland I know of, Edinburgh I believe. Enyeart mentioned some others to me. Schools have gone "Postmodern" which means theory, which means we don't need to know "craft." I had one MFA who was a department head at a 4year who used "craft oriented" as a pejorative and dismissed all European photo education as being "craft oriented." I was proposing to here a MFA program built around historic processes. An MFA is supposed to be a "studio art" degree, that to me, seems to imply craft. Imagine getting a degree in piano, violin, etc, but you can't play the instrument but can program midi to do it. Even a degree in composition requires one to be skilled in piano. Name one modern composer who isn't skilled in piano. Most are performance skilled. Bernstein, Copeland, Gershwin, et al.

Enough. I get riled up.

Dick, here, here! Yes I would get riled up also. Hell, it looks like I know more than the average MFA's out there and I only know a little of art history. The craft of what we do is where it is at! Man, do we have to do some education or what! I did a show last month in Riverside and I printed a little info about carbon to hang on the wall and people were amazed by what I did and how much I knew about the process. I consider myself someone who is just starting out and has gained some working knowledge but it seems like I know more than the educated MFA's out there. Looks like I need some initials after my name!!

My oldest son has a degree in music and got some music history. The rest we learned together. He told me that in order to perform the piano works of the great masters you had to know what was going on at the time in order to interpret their works. By his performances I'd say he was paying very close attention!

Jim