9 replies to this topic

[Richard Sullivan -- Moderator]

This is still very experimental.

check out:

http://thecarbonworks.com/blog/?p=878

--Dick

[pschwart]

Good to see you playing with carbon again Forgive me, but how does this constitute a new technique or a system? Most of us are already pouring glop between 35-40C onto a leveled surface. I generally use a mask (plexiglas or magnetic sign material). I usually run a rod over the surface after pouring, but I don't get bubbles even if I just push the glop around with a finger. The biggest difference is you are cooling in a fridge/freezer. I just use an upturned 16x20 tray, and cover it with a damp towel and a couple of blue gel packs if the air temperature is above about 72 F. This Rube Goldberg A/C cools the tissue ready to hang in a very few minutes. Keeping the glop hot when making very large tissues (> 20x30) is tricky, but how many are making tissues that large? I have considered adding heating/cooling under my pouring table using Peltier modules but this is way too much engineering for the tissues I pour (up to 11x14). Still might be a fun project
I recall Andrea Zalme had rigged up cooling with an old truck radiator.

The down side of heating the glop much over 100-105F:
- you *must* use a mask or dam
- the glop runs everywhere, including under your mask/dam ...
- so leveling becomes critical
- and of course, the hotter you pour, the longer to cool

One of the benefit of using a rod (with or without a mask) is that you can pour the glop cooler, and use the heat of the rod to eliminate bubbles and provide a perfect surface.

Richard Sullivan -- Moderator, on 27 March 2012 - 08:12 AM, said:

This is still very experimental.

check out:

http://thecarbonworks.com/blog/?p=878

--Dick

[Richard Sullivan -- Moderator]

Large images are a important issue for galleries. 16x20 is considered small today. The size issue has come down some in the last few years however. Emerging artists are infrequently pushed to make larger images. A famous photographer recently inquired as to how to scan her wetplates so she could make 42 x 60 prints. And she is anything but emerging. As for emerging artists, they break into the real world by selling images that are bought for hanging in the home. Small images do not hold a wall as the lingo goes.


That said making the tissue easier to pour is only one aspect of our current research. There are several other objectives that our research is showing promise at this point.

Longer shelf life for premixed glop. With a non-dichromate non-toxic sensitizer.

A Non Dichromate sensitizer

CYMK Kits premixed with exposure charts pre worked out.

And moving to polyvinyl alcohol based image for archivalness.

Of course those who are comfortable doing it they way they are doing it now will continue. That is not the target market.

These are just some of the avenues that have opened up recently. Most look quite doable at at this time.

I believe Evercolor was PVA based.

--Dick

[pschwart]

Large images are a important issue for galleries.

Agreed, and this is one of my pet peeves. Sure, galleries want to sell big, expensive prints, but I'll be damned if I am going to let a gallery dictate the size of my prints or any other aspect of my photography (don't get me started about editioning prints). Which explains why I don't have gallery representation. :) If I do decide to make sofa-size carbons -- it could happen -- I would have to rent a big work space and build pouring platforms with on-demand heating and cooling or a simple coating machine that has a heated reservoir that moves on a track over the coating platform. Pouring is the challenge; cooling is not.

A non-dichromate sensitizer would be interesting. I don't understand these two:

CYMK Kits premixed with exposure charts pre worked out.
polyvinyl alcohol based image for archivalness.

Richard Sullivan -- Moderator, on 27 March 2012 - 11:23 AM, said:

Large images are a important issue for galleries. 16x20 is considered small today. The size issue has come down some in the last few years however. Emerging artists are infrequently pushed to make larger images. A famous photographer recently inquired as to how to scan her wetplates so she could make 42 x 60 prints. And she is anything but emerging. As for emerging artists, they break into the real world by selling images that are bought for hanging in the home. Small images do not hold a wall as the lingo goes.


That said making the tissue easier to pour is only one aspect of our current research. There are several other objectives that our research is showing promise at this point.

Longer shelf life for premixed glop. With a non-dichromate non-toxic sensitizer.

A Non Dichromate sensitizer

CYMK Kits premixed with exposure charts pre worked out.

And moving to polyvinyl alcohol based image for archivalness.

Of course those who are comfortable doing it they way they are doing it now will continue. That is not the target market.

These are just some of the avenues that have opened up recently. Most look quite doable at at this time.

I believe Evercolor was PVA based.

--Dick

[pschwart]

Maybe there is a business opportunity for B&S here.
If I was asked to make some 30"x40" prints and I wanted 40"x60" tissues, could you make them?
Could you make tissues using a glop recipe I specify?

There are plenty of printers providing platinum prints; do you know of anyone who contracts for carbon prints (besides Fresson)?

[Richard Sullivan -- Moderator]

Those last two are being explored. The new gelatin is liguid just above room temperature and according to the maker it is supposed to have an extremely long shelf life. That opens up the option of making a CYMK kit premixed. Say 4 quarts each of CYMK colors with the non dichromate sensitizer. Warm up to 80 dgegrees (just put bottles in a pot of hot water) and pour your tissue for a 4 color laydown. Sensitizer is included, no muss, no fuss.

Now if you can believe Sinclair and his book on Carbro and McGraw's method of registration which was to use clear film for the tissue and register by eyeball, from Dick McGraws archives in Tucson, this appears to be the way he did carbro as well.

I beleive there is a small but substainable market for 4 color kits. Museums and collectors are paying absurd amount of money for color work, Burtensky, Prince, et al. I think there is an atelier print market there. I could be wrong. The throry is if someone is paying 50,000$ for a C41 print that must be stored in a freezer they'd pay 55,000$ for a color carbon. Some for the printer and a little for me. Now almost all of these high end color works are really big.24x30 30x30 and up so there are other issues to conquer. There is also the the market we represent here as well, the serious enthusiast, very serious indeed.

Archival? Gelatin hardens over age and get brittle. Much brittleness of early carbons I ascribe to poor clearing and washing. You never pick up vintage carbon with one hand, it most be cradled. I think Evercolor or that other pre-ateraxia color system _name escapes me -- may have been PV alky.

And then there is the Ozotype which we have had some proof of concept experiments with using the new gelatin. There are more branches than all the creeks in Kentucky!

Another issue. The gelatin due to its low viscosity when warm appears to brushcoat very well. I believe Liquid Light is using the same material, the gel mfr doesn't know or won't say, but I have my suspicions. Can you say a brush on POP paper. Forget the enlarger, contact work.

I am about to build a continuous run machine for albumen to increase efficiency.

[Greg Mikol]

Holy crap, Dick...this is some interesting stuff. I like the idea of premixed 4-color glop. I also like the idea of non-dichromate sensitizer-incorporated glop. Any plans to sell the sensitizer separately? Any hints as to what it is? I've played a bit with the UltraStable sensitizer, and a couple others, but they're tough to source in small quantities as an individual...

Do you plan on also selling 4-color tissue, or is liquid(-ish) glop gonna be it?

I know you'll do a good job letting us know how it all comes along...

--Greg

[Richard Sullivan -- Moderator]

OK, Greg, Calm down, take another Valium!<grin>

The danger of talking about any research project is that folks get ahead of me. Dana and Melody through big hissy fits when I do this. The advantage is to be able to talk to experts in the filed, and the folks here are certainly the best there is when It comes to carbon printing.

And yes, I was trying to remember the name Ultrastable. We were for some time a seller of the material and we never sold any. Zip, Nada. I never even got an instruction sheet for the the stuff. They would not make a couple of monochrome colors for carbon printing. "No one wants mono, everyone wants 4 color yada yada. Not so, I had tons of requests for a black or a warm brown/black, a very dark green. Etc. It's simple they said, just work out the color mix and transfer the right tissues and you will have your color. Right, I need to do 4 transfers to get a warm black? And, oh, they can sell 4 sheets of tissue for one print.

As for the non-dichromate, I am working on that and talking to a vendor who hasn't a clue as to what I am talking about. I know it can be done. Diazos do work, but they stain yellow and you need to bleach back with a potassium permanganate bleach which adds a whole 'nother road to your workflow and is messy, etc.

so, thanks for the comments.

[Greg Mikol]

Sorry to be such a spazz....I've been noodling about very slowly with some of these same topics, and the thought of someone else doing some of the work is appealing to me, and I'd gladly pay (within reason, of course) to eliminate some steps on my end. I've moved back into a less free time / more money work situation, as opposed to last year, with lots more free time and less money. When my current contract is up, my opinion might change again...

I've tried true diazos, and the UltraStable (which is an azide(?) ), and both require the bleaching step. If you've found something that doesn't require bleaching, that's awesome...

I hope *you* decide to do sell some monochrome pre-sensitized tissues and glop (hint, hint)...

--Greg

[kees]

Hi,

I am printing four color carbon with diazidostilbene/gelatin for some time now and found staining a non issue with polyester/pvc/polycarbonate temporary supports. It's great and much faster to work with presensitized tissue. I also am using Halvor's ferric method, but without the not so convenient agar-agar layer. Instead I use a protective but soluble coating. Ferric is nice for high relief monochrome.

As far as I can say: presensitized non-dichromate carbon is the future!

Kees

kees